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    <title>Fire/Arson Investigations</title>
    <link>http://www.forumworld.com/arson-investigations/index.php</link>
    <description><![CDATA[]]></description>
    <language>EN</language>
    <pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 07:23:06 +0100</pubDate>
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    <category>Fire/Arson Investigations</category>
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    <item>
      <title>[Fire/Arson Investigations] Re: 1949 Fatal Fire... Arson or Accident?</title>
      <link>http://www.forumworld.com/arson-investigations/read.php?3,5245,5254#msg-5254</link>
      <author>jschwenk</author>
      <description><![CDATA[My argument here is the existing photos. They don't agree with their conclusion.

The investigation at best took 6 hrs. My second argument is that it doesn't agree with the recollections of the victims families.

FYI: At least 54 (probably more) of the 170 victims of the Jan. 13, 1908 &quot;Rhoads Opera House Fire&quot; in Boyertown, Berks Co., PA were members of my family. The Opera House fire was truly an accident. This wasn't.

Jack Schwenk
Birch Bay, WA]]></description>
      <category>Fire/Arson Investigations</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.forumworld.com/arson-investigations/read.php?3,5245,5254#msg-5254</guid>
      <pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 07:23:06 +0100</pubDate>
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    <item>
      <title>[Fire/Arson Investigations] Re: 1949 Fatal Fire... Arson or Accident?</title>
      <link>http://www.forumworld.com/arson-investigations/read.php?3,5245,5253#msg-5253</link>
      <author>jschwenk</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Here's the transcript from the newspaper:

Norristown Times Herald, Wednesday, January 5, 1949

Page1:

Farm House Death Trap For 6 Today

Charred Bodies Of Six Fire Victims Removed From Home Near Phoenixville

War Veteran, Scottish War Bride and Their Five-Year-Old Son Die; Two-Year-Old Son Dropped to Safety In Blaze at Cromby

The charred bodies of six persons were removed this morning from the ruins of their fire-gutted home on the village of Cromby, a quarter-mile North of Phoenixville. Firemen, who had fought the blaze after it was discovered at midnight, were forced by darkness to wait until daylight to search for the bodies.

A two-year-old child, orphaned by the fire, was injured when he was dropped to safety from a second floor window at the height of the fire. Five other persons escaped the flames.

The dead were identified as: Percy Lick, 26, a war veteran; his war bride, Mrs. Theresa D'Inverno Lick, 25, a native of Edinburgh, Scotland; their son, Vincent Lick, five; Lick's brother George Lick, 35; Elwood Patrick, 40, a roomer, and Shirley Schwenk, 15, a student at Phoenixville Junior High School.

The Lick's younger son Michael, was taken to Phoenixville Hospital for treatment of brush burns of the face and second degree burns of both hands. He is believed to have been dropped to the hard-frozen ground from an upstairs window, probably by his parents.

Those who escaped the flames were Matthew Kraft, 30, his wife 32, and their six-months-old son Michael, Jr.; Kraft's brother, Martin, 21, and their legless mother, Mrs. Mary Kraft, 52.

The elder Mrs Kraft, whose legs were amputated because of a gangrenous infection several years ago, was carried to safety by her son Martin.

Fifteen-year-old Shirley Schwenk, who lost her life, was a daughter by a former marriage of the younger Mrs. Kraft.

According to a story pieced together by members of the family the Krafts all were sleeping on the first floor of the home on Cromby Rd., about 200 yards from the Phoenixville Water Works and a short distance from the Schuylkill Canal.

Mrs. Kraft was awakened by the smell of smoke, and roused her husband. While Kraft shouted to his mother and brother, Mrs. Kraft picked up her infant son and ran to the door leading to the upstairs bedroom.

She called to her daughter Shirley, and to the Licks. After hearing an answer, she turned, smashed through a window and jumped six feet to the ground, protecting her baby in her arms.

Her husband again called upstairs, then followed out through the window. Martin picked up his mother, and carried her outside to safety.

Both Martin and Matthew attempted to re-enter the house to aid the Licks, but were forced to turn back when flames singed their hair.

&quot;Mother Pleads to Girl&quot;

While Mrs Kraft stood outside, clutching her baby, her daughter, Shirleyappeared at the window of her bedroom. The mother pleaded with her to jump, but the girl apparently was either too frightened or was overcome by smoke.

She sank to the floor, out of sight, while her mother screamed frantically below. Shirley's pet dog, &quot;Jackie&quot;, who always slept at the foot of her bed, died at her side.

The Kraft brothers said that they were attempting to re-enter the house when the child, Michael, suddenly dropped to the ground at their feet.

The blase is believed to have been discovered simultaneously by Clarence Austin, an employee of the Water Works who turned in the alarm, and by Richard Turner, a lockkeeper at the canal, and his son, Logan Turner.

Phoenixville Hook and Ladder Co. arrived on the scene and members of the Friendship Co. whose equipment is out of service, came by automobile to aid in fighting the blaze.

&quot;Stove Knocked Over&quot;

According to an investigation by Chief Leo Cosgrove, Phoenixville Fire Department, the blaze started when a keroscene stove on the front proch was knocked over. More than 100 chickens housed in the porch, were killed. Flames spread rapidly through the two-story house of cinder block and frame construction.

Lick who served with a groud crew of the Air Force during 31 months overseas duty, met his wife in London in 1942. Thery were married in a chapel at Devizes, England. Lick was a graduate of Schwenksville High School.

Mrs. Lick was employed by the A.C. Roberts Packing Co., Kimberton, where George Lick also was employed. Patrick, the boarder who lost his life, had been employed by the Pennsylvania Railroad for 23 years.

The house was owned by Mr. and Mrs. Matthew Kraft who had taken in Martin and the elder Kraft when they were evicted last Thursday from their home in Mont Clair.

Coroner Cooper T. Bishop, Jr., arrived on the scene at the height of the blaze, and directed the removal of the bodies this morning. He said that the victims died of first, second and third drgree burns of the body, and suffocation. The only body recognizable was that of Mrs. Lick. Identification was made by Matthew Kraft.

Aiding in the rescue efforts were State Troopers Harry Bullick, John Cole, Henry Miller and Agt. James Brennan of Devon Barracks, and Chief Frank K. MacInnis and Officers Joseph T. Pinter and Donald M. Foulke.]]></description>
      <category>Fire/Arson Investigations</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.forumworld.com/arson-investigations/read.php?3,5245,5253#msg-5253</guid>
      <pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 05:14:11 +0100</pubDate>
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    <item>
      <title>[Fire/Arson Investigations] Re: 1949 Fatal Fire... Arson or Accident?</title>
      <link>http://www.forumworld.com/arson-investigations/read.php?3,5245,5252#msg-5252</link>
      <author>PMK140</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Jack,

In 1949 professional fire investigation was in its infancy.  Quite literally, there was virtually no science used in fire investigations.  In 1949 the training of fire investigators was largely based on anecdotal principles and myths.  Methodology, and even scene possessing techniques, were quite unsophisticated.    Accurate fire patterns analysis theory did not exist. 1949 vintage kerosene heaters were notoriously dangerous lacking any reliable safety features that we may find on modern heaters.


It is rather unlikely that, even with a complete copy of the 1949 report in hand, a modern-day fire analyst would be hard put to either confirm or deny the original investigations’ accuracy.  Any opinions expressed on this forum, based upon the information which you have put forward could be nothing but the rankest speculation.]]></description>
      <category>Fire/Arson Investigations</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.forumworld.com/arson-investigations/read.php?3,5245,5252#msg-5252</guid>
      <pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 04:19:20 +0100</pubDate>
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    <item>
      <title>[Fire/Arson Investigations] Re: 1949 Fatal Fire... Arson or Accident?</title>
      <link>http://www.forumworld.com/arson-investigations/read.php?3,5245,5251#msg-5251</link>
      <author>jschwenk</author>
      <description><![CDATA[This is from the coroner's report (all six were exactly the same except for their names):

Name: Shirley Schwenk
Age: 14
Cause of Death: Suffocation and severely burned body due to being unable to escape from fire which consumed her abode do to intensity and rapidity of fire.

Signed: C.T. Bishop, Jr.

Paul Lick, Shirley's uncle idenified all six bodies. His son Paul told me abt. two years ago that all the bodies were burned beyond recognition. Identification was based on their sex and relavent ages. Shirley was found in her second floor bedroom clutching her german shepard.

I haven't been able to get any official documentation on the fire other than the death certificates and coroner's reports.

Jack Schwenk
Birch Bay, WA]]></description>
      <category>Fire/Arson Investigations</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.forumworld.com/arson-investigations/read.php?3,5245,5251#msg-5251</guid>
      <pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 02:43:50 +0100</pubDate>
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    <item>
      <title>[Fire/Arson Investigations] Re: Power Outages - Starting Fires?</title>
      <link>http://www.forumworld.com/arson-investigations/read.php?3,5215,5250#msg-5250</link>
      <author>MIKE</author>
      <description><![CDATA[I actually had one a few years back where the range was left on, the people left for the night not turning it off or removing the pot that was on it.]]></description>
      <category>Fire/Arson Investigations</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.forumworld.com/arson-investigations/read.php?3,5215,5250#msg-5250</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 20:50:54 +0100</pubDate>
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    <item>
      <title>[Fire/Arson Investigations] Re: 1949 Fatal Fire... Arson or Accident?</title>
      <link>http://www.forumworld.com/arson-investigations/read.php?3,5245,5249#msg-5249</link>
      <author>dcarpenter</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Sounds like the origin hypothesis may need some more testing.

In a fatal fire, information on how the victims died can be useful in determining the room of origin. The first question that should be asked is where each victim was found and what was their corresponding %COHb in the blood?

See section 23.5.1.4 in NFPA 921. If the victims in your case truly died from thermal burns, then it is likely that they were in the room of origin since CO, in general, is not produced until after untenable thermal conditions are achieved in the compartment.]]></description>
      <category>Fire/Arson Investigations</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.forumworld.com/arson-investigations/read.php?3,5245,5249#msg-5249</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 15:28:26 +0100</pubDate>
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    <item>
      <title>[Fire/Arson Investigations] Re: 1949 Fatal Fire... Arson or Accident?</title>
      <link>http://www.forumworld.com/arson-investigations/read.php?3,5245,5248#msg-5248</link>
      <author>Nick Markowitz</author>
      <description><![CDATA[they have just redid our FOI rules in Pa you may want to try again.
If the fire did start outside then worked its way in to where it found a large amount of fuel a massive fire is possible. We just had a fire fatality in Pittsburgh this summer where a man smoking on a couch on a porch lost his and his mothers life. after the fire worked its way in hit the stairway and took off.
a very sad situation.
Unfortunately too many people around Pa leave  alot of stuff on there porches
and a carelessly tossed cigarette sets it off.


I can understand your digging i have been doing so my self into possible homicide of my great grandfather who was found at bottom  of his apartment  steps in a drunken stupor and items where missing from his apartment.
we do not know if he fell first and thief came in afterward or he confronted the thief and was knocked down steps.Since he was a known drunkard the police did very little to document and investigate the case.]]></description>
      <category>Fire/Arson Investigations</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.forumworld.com/arson-investigations/read.php?3,5245,5248#msg-5248</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 12:42:18 +0100</pubDate>
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    <item>
      <title>[Fire/Arson Investigations] Re: 1949 Fatal Fire... Arson or Accident?</title>
      <link>http://www.forumworld.com/arson-investigations/read.php?3,5245,5247#msg-5247</link>
      <author>jschwenk</author>
      <description><![CDATA[There is no indication from the documents available that the fire was of electrical origin. From the photos available, the area where the fire supposedly started shows little damage on the exterior. The fire supposedly started outside the house.

The coroner's inquest documents on the six victims show the cause of death as severe burns. Unike other coroner's inquest documents I've reviewed there was no court testimony. The six death certificates contain more information than the inquest documents.

PSP has refused two requests under the Freedom of Information Act for their records on the incident.

It is also believed that one of the three PSP Troopers assigned to the case was actually a family member.

Jack Schwenk
Birch Bay, WA]]></description>
      <category>Fire/Arson Investigations</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.forumworld.com/arson-investigations/read.php?3,5245,5247#msg-5247</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 01:46:08 +0100</pubDate>
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    <item>
      <title>[Fire/Arson Investigations] Re: 1949 Fatal Fire... Arson or Accident?</title>
      <link>http://www.forumworld.com/arson-investigations/read.php?3,5245,5246#msg-5246</link>
      <author>Nick Markowitz</author>
      <description><![CDATA[We have had several multiple fatality fires around my area of western Pa.in rural areas which involved kerosene heaters in homes which had there gas shut off. All where wood frame and went up very fast. After heater leaked or got tipped etc.
there are many areas that would have to be looked into and considered before arson could definitely be ruled. 
Electrical fires them selves also produce hot fast violent fires becuse they have been burning a long time in a wall and when they break out and hit fresh air they take off like a blow torch and could easily be thought to have been arson as well.]]></description>
      <category>Fire/Arson Investigations</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.forumworld.com/arson-investigations/read.php?3,5245,5246#msg-5246</guid>
      <pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 00:49:57 +0100</pubDate>
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    <item>
      <title>[Fire/Arson Investigations] 1949 Fatal Fire... Arson or Accident?</title>
      <link>http://www.forumworld.com/arson-investigations/read.php?3,5245,5245#msg-5245</link>
      <author>jschwenk</author>
      <description><![CDATA[I've been researching a 12:15am January 5, 1949 fatal fire in Chester Co., PA for several years. The fire story was carried by many of the newspapers in the US and Canada. The most accurate story was published by the Norristown Times Herald.

The house in question was a two story structure with a masonry basement. The fire marshall stated in the newspapers that the fire was caused by a keroscene brooder stove on the porch that was somehow knocked over by some chickens. The newspaper photos and those in the Chester Co. archives show the porch intact with no burn marks around the door which was also intact. The windows were knocked out from the inside by those who escaped the blaze according to witnesses. The structure was completely gutted but the frame walls still stood. The six victims were burned beyond recognition.

Witnesses stated that from the time they noticed the blaze until the structure was fully involved was a matter of a few minutes. The fire company pumped water from the Schuylkill River only 100 ft. away but it took several hours to control the blaze.

How feasable is it that the fire could have been caused by the keroscene stove and that the spilled keroscene would have fully involved the building in matter of minutes?

It has been the contention by a number of the victims family members that the fire was actually an arson. I'm inclined to believe they were correct.

I'd appreciate any assistance here.

Thanks,

Jack Schwenk
Birch Bay, WA]]></description>
      <category>Fire/Arson Investigations</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.forumworld.com/arson-investigations/read.php?3,5245,5245#msg-5245</guid>
      <pubDate>Mon, 05 Jan 2009 22:51:17 +0100</pubDate>
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    <item>
      <title>[Fire/Arson Investigations] Re: Doing your job??</title>
      <link>http://www.forumworld.com/arson-investigations/read.php?3,5219,5244#msg-5244</link>
      <author>Phoenix</author>
      <description><![CDATA[I too have had this same type of situation where the state wanted to call a fire differently than the municipality ( i.e. me/partner) We could not concur with &quot;their&quot; findings. So I wrote the origin and cause report and filed it along with the states report. The only thing we agreed on was it was accidental. If you are confident in your call, backed up with quality investigative techniques, stick to your guns.]]></description>
      <category>Fire/Arson Investigations</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.forumworld.com/arson-investigations/read.php?3,5219,5244#msg-5244</guid>
      <pubDate>Mon, 05 Jan 2009 22:19:46 +0100</pubDate>
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      <title>[Fire/Arson Investigations] Re: Power Outages - Starting Fires?</title>
      <link>http://www.forumworld.com/arson-investigations/read.php?3,5215,5243#msg-5243</link>
      <author>jjrogers</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Mark Goodson had some very good replies relative to some of the responses that you received. To make a blanket statement that as voltage decreases current increases is technically incorrect that only happens in some instances. Power outages and power surges are obviously totally different phenomenon. It has been my experience that human intervention has alot to do with structure fires that occur after extended power outages. What often happens is people turn on electric ranges and other appliances and they obviously do not work and they forget to turn them off, when power is restored sometimes there may not even be someone in the building and the appliance that was inadvertently left on continues to operate unattended. Hope this helps.

Jim]]></description>
      <category>Fire/Arson Investigations</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.forumworld.com/arson-investigations/read.php?3,5215,5243#msg-5243</guid>
      <pubDate>Mon, 05 Jan 2009 15:36:37 +0100</pubDate>
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    <item>
      <title>[Fire/Arson Investigations] Re: Doing your job??</title>
      <link>http://www.forumworld.com/arson-investigations/read.php?3,5219,5242#msg-5242</link>
      <author>SJAvato</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Given that new data has become available, it would seem logical that the investigator should re-evaluate his/her original conclusions to incorporate the new data. This process would include evaluating the significance of the new data itself.  Is the information from a reliable source? Is the information specific enough to support its veracity? Is there other verification of the new information? Other witnesses? Other circumstances to support the intentional act scenario? Is the scene consistent with the new data and ignition scenario? 
It certainly warrants a review. 

Steve]]></description>
      <category>Fire/Arson Investigations</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.forumworld.com/arson-investigations/read.php?3,5219,5242#msg-5242</guid>
      <pubDate>Mon, 05 Jan 2009 14:32:55 +0100</pubDate>
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    <item>
      <title>[Fire/Arson Investigations] Re: Doing your job??</title>
      <link>http://www.forumworld.com/arson-investigations/read.php?3,5219,5241#msg-5241</link>
      <author>K Vanderpool</author>
      <description><![CDATA[I believe you would have difficulties in proving that the accused actually stuffed newspaper around the the outlet and lit it.  Especially with the amount of damage you stated.  You would have had to collected physical evidence to prove the remains of the news paper and I believe that would be very difficult if not impossible]]></description>
      <category>Fire/Arson Investigations</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.forumworld.com/arson-investigations/read.php?3,5219,5241#msg-5241</guid>
      <pubDate>Mon, 05 Jan 2009 14:16:15 +0100</pubDate>
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    <item>
      <title>[Fire/Arson Investigations] Re: history repeats</title>
      <link>http://www.forumworld.com/arson-investigations/read.php?3,5231,5240#msg-5240</link>
      <author>John J. Lentini, CFEI</author>
      <description><![CDATA[&quot;Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it,&quot; 

Those who remember George Santayana are condemned to repeat him.

Happy New Year.]]></description>
      <category>Fire/Arson Investigations</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.forumworld.com/arson-investigations/read.php?3,5231,5240#msg-5240</guid>
      <pubDate>Sat, 03 Jan 2009 23:40:39 +0100</pubDate>
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    <item>
      <title>[Fire/Arson Investigations] Re: Ratio of Undetermined Causes to Fires Investigated</title>
      <link>http://www.forumworld.com/arson-investigations/read.php?3,5238,5239#msg-5239</link>
      <author>jgmcfps</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Such info can be obtained from both NFPA and USFA. Both publish data on this issue. With that said remember that the data is only as good as the inputs.  Recently I have had a couple of students in my NFA classes who worked for departments whose &quot;unwritten&quot; rule was all firs we're either accidental or incendiary, undetermined was not allowed!]]></description>
      <category>Fire/Arson Investigations</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.forumworld.com/arson-investigations/read.php?3,5238,5239#msg-5239</guid>
      <pubDate>Sat, 03 Jan 2009 21:34:56 +0100</pubDate>
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    <item>
      <title>[Fire/Arson Investigations] Ratio of Undetermined Causes to Fires Investigated</title>
      <link>http://www.forumworld.com/arson-investigations/read.php?3,5238,5238#msg-5238</link>
      <author>Dennis Merkley</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Anyone know of a scientific study that indicates the ratio of fires investigated to the number of undetermined causes? There was a quote from the Ontario Office of the Fire Marshal suggesting the number of undetermined causes was 22% but no information regarding the study.]]></description>
      <category>Fire/Arson Investigations</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.forumworld.com/arson-investigations/read.php?3,5238,5238#msg-5238</guid>
      <pubDate>Sat, 03 Jan 2009 14:34:17 +0100</pubDate>
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    <item>
      <title>[Fire/Arson Investigations] Re: Notifier Fire panel recall</title>
      <link>http://www.forumworld.com/arson-investigations/read.php?3,5234,5237#msg-5237</link>
      <author>Nick Markowitz</author>
      <description><![CDATA[hopefully the dealers who sold these panels will send a tech to track them down and check the software version etc. Since its an engineered system sold only thru authorised outlets they should have better results than average recall

I had to do a similar thing several years ago when there was a smoke det. recall.
of course who eats the cost of all this is another matter.]]></description>
      <category>Fire/Arson Investigations</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.forumworld.com/arson-investigations/read.php?3,5234,5237#msg-5237</guid>
      <pubDate>Sat, 03 Jan 2009 13:11:16 +0100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>[Fire/Arson Investigations] Re: Notifier Fire panel recall</title>
      <link>http://www.forumworld.com/arson-investigations/read.php?3,5234,5236#msg-5236</link>
      <author>cda</author>
      <description><![CDATA[so who is responsible to look for these panels??]]></description>
      <category>Fire/Arson Investigations</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.forumworld.com/arson-investigations/read.php?3,5234,5236#msg-5236</guid>
      <pubDate>Sat, 03 Jan 2009 03:47:07 +0100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>[Fire/Arson Investigations] Re: history repeats</title>
      <link>http://www.forumworld.com/arson-investigations/read.php?3,5231,5235#msg-5235</link>
      <author>Nick Markowitz</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Who was it that said&quot; failure to remember the past results in being condemmed to relive it &quot;

It just seems to be a human condition we never learn our lesson.]]></description>
      <category>Fire/Arson Investigations</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.forumworld.com/arson-investigations/read.php?3,5231,5235#msg-5235</guid>
      <pubDate>Sat, 03 Jan 2009 00:42:51 +0100</pubDate>
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    <item>
      <title>[Fire/Arson Investigations] Notifier Fire panel recall</title>
      <link>http://www.forumworld.com/arson-investigations/read.php?3,5234,5234#msg-5234</link>
      <author>Nick Markowitz</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Fire alarm panels 

Notifier is recalling about 2,000 Fire Alarm Control Panels because the software in the fire alarm system could fail to process an alarm condition, which could result in the system failing to respond in the event of a fire. 

This recall involves the Notifier brand operating system firmware control panels in fire alarms. The control panel is black or red with a silver screen. The panels control display and emergency communications. &quot;NOTIFIER&quot; or &quot;NOTIFIER by Honeywell&quot; is printed on the front of the fire alarm unit. This recall includes the following model numbers: Firmware version 11.2.2 for NFS2-640 and NFS-320 control panels and firmware version 3.14.1 for and NFS-640 control panels. 

The panels were sold by authorized distributors to commercial end-users. The products were not sold at retail, but version 11.2.2 was available for download on www.magni-fire.com, a secure Web site accessible only to Notifier customers from May through July at no charge.
_________________]]></description>
      <category>Fire/Arson Investigations</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.forumworld.com/arson-investigations/read.php?3,5234,5234#msg-5234</guid>
      <pubDate>Sat, 03 Jan 2009 00:39:06 +0100</pubDate>
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    <item>
      <title>[Fire/Arson Investigations] Re: Power Outages - Starting Fires?</title>
      <link>http://www.forumworld.com/arson-investigations/read.php?3,5215,5233#msg-5233</link>
      <author>JHooker</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Thanks to all that have responded to my original post.

The day after an island wide outage, we have 3 residential structure fires in close proximity to the time power was restored.  The big media blitz was that the &quot;power surge&quot; caused these fires.

Not wanting to jump head first in the same pond everyone else was, I started doing some research (to include my original post) to try and determine what actually happens when power is restored to a residential system.

The way I understand it to this point (in a perfect world, with no human error involved), no significant change should occur to the residential circuits.  Power comes in and is distributed just as if the power company was connecting the service for the first time. There should not be this mysterious &quot;surge&quot; to the residential service.  What ever loads were active at the time of the outage, will be re-energized when service is returned.  

This has been my take of the information gleaned thus far.  Thanks again for the assistance.  Aloha to all.  Jeff]]></description>
      <category>Fire/Arson Investigations</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.forumworld.com/arson-investigations/read.php?3,5215,5233#msg-5233</guid>
      <pubDate>Fri, 02 Jan 2009 17:35:56 +0100</pubDate>
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    <item>
      <title>[Fire/Arson Investigations] Re: Power Outages - Starting Fires?</title>
      <link>http://www.forumworld.com/arson-investigations/read.php?3,5215,5232#msg-5232</link>
      <author>Mark Goodson</author>
      <description><![CDATA[With all due respect

UL 1449 is not being applied to on board MOVs, unless the MOV is part of a RPT - (Relocatable Power Tap) or surge suppression appliance..  If a MOV is part of a device that is not a RPT / TVSS, UL 1449 is not being applied.. and ergo, the surge suppressor (the MOV in the circuit) is not protected and can cause a fire...

*****************
Here is another statement that confuses me..

What does power factor correction do for a house, obviously your electric bill will be a whole lot cheaper per month because you are not sucking current.

My reply...

Power in a residential setting is charged for by the KW-hr... For the same amount of work done, you require the same amount of power.. Power Factor Correction (PFC) will save an industrial customer money, IF the utility monitors the Power Factor (PF). Residential customers do not pay for Imaginary Power (Volt Amperes Reactive, VARs)..


********************

Another paragraph that confused me:

What actually causes a potential flame out. Answer: it is not a high voltage surge. Ohms law, if the voltage drops, the current rises. Hince a surge suppression device does not see the surge at all because it operates only at high voltage, so at low voltage what really happens....we have tremendous amount of current. The current is what normally causes fires, not high voltage. So a good surge suppression device should also be equipment with a 20 amp/15amp or even a 10 amp fast blow fuse. That should stop the over current issue.

My reply:

A linear load, such as a light bulb, will require .833 amperes at 120 volts for a 100 watt (nominal) bulb. If the voltage drops to 115 volts, the current drops, wattage decreases, and the bulb life is extended.

Switch mode supplies typically operate for 100 v to 250 volt operations...  these supplies are used typically on PCs, monitors, TVs, etc... They attempt to supply a constant output wattage, so as voltage input drops, input current will increase. But a 15% drop in voltage will increase input current accordingly. This should not cause any fires... see Beland's research which has been around since the 1980's... 

Also, RPTs are required to have 15 A thermal circuit breakers to prevent overcurrent conditions...



Is there any substantive research on the conditions you are describing which has been published?


Thanks, 

Mark Goodson]]></description>
      <category>Fire/Arson Investigations</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.forumworld.com/arson-investigations/read.php?3,5215,5232#msg-5232</guid>
      <pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 2009 17:49:45 +0100</pubDate>
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    <item>
      <title>[Fire/Arson Investigations] history repeats</title>
      <link>http://www.forumworld.com/arson-investigations/read.php?3,5231,5231#msg-5231</link>
      <author>cda</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Bangkok nightclub fire kills 59, injures 130
Wednesday, December 31, 2008 6:24 PM EST 
The Associated Press 
By DENIS D. GRAY Associated Press Writer 


BANGKOK, Thailand (AP) — A fire swept through a high-class nightclub jammed with several hundred New Year's revelers early Thursday, killing at least 59 people and injuring about 130, officials said. A number of foreigners were among the casualties from the blaze that erupted shortly after midnight at the Santika Club in Bangkok's entertainment district.

Victims died from burns, smoke inhalation and injuries during the stampede to escape from the club, which had only one door for the public, police Maj. Gen. Chokchai Deeprasertwit said. Firefighters said a door at the rear was known only to the staff, while an Associated Press reporter saw a third door at one side of the building.

Video footage of the disaster showed bloodied, bruised and burned victims being dragged out of the burning club or managing to run through the door or shattered windows. The video — provided to AP Television News by rescue workers — showed flames racing through the entire building even as the rescue operation was going on.

Police Gen. Jongrak Jutanont put the death toll at 59, which included an undetermined number of foreigners. He said that among the injured were nationals of Australia, Nepal, Japan and the Netherlands.

Most of the victims were confirmed dead at the club but at least one person died at a hospital. Workers counting bodies told AP that about 130 others were injured. Rescue said they believed other bodies were still inside the blaze-gutted building, which has two stories and a basement.

Chokchai said that the fire may have been caused by firecrackers brought into the Santika Club by guests or sparks flying from a New Year's countdown display on the nightclub stage.

The Web site of The Nation newspaper quoted one party-goer, Somchai Frendi, as saying the blaze was caused by fireworks that ignited the second floor ceiling, which was made largely of sound-proofing material.

The club was packed with about 1,000 celebrants, according to police officers who declined to be named because they were not authorized to speak to the press.

Most of the bodies were found in the basement of the club, which attracts a well-heeled crowd of Thais and foreigners, rescuers said. The corpses, placed in white body bags, were laid out in rows in the parking lot in front of the club.

The emergency workers said the rescue operation was delayed because of heavy New Year's traffic in the Ekamai entertainment district and the large number of cars parked at the club.

Firefighter Watcharapong Sri-saard said that in addition to a lack of exits, a number of staircases inside the club as well as bars across the second-floor windows made escape difficult.

An AP reporter who peered inside the still burning building said everything in sight had been burned.

&quot;Bodies, some of them probably alive, were falling off the stretchers as the rescue workers rushed them away. The flames were glowing through the broken glass windows. A part of the building had already collapsed,&quot; said Andrew Jones of England, who arrived at the scene shortly after the fire erupted.

One local Web site about the entertainment scene in Bangkok described the club as attracting &quot;an affluent Thai student crowd, with Euro models and Westerners also popping in&quot; with a &quot;whisky-sipping crowd all focused on a large stage.&quot;

Another site says that the high ceiling and a cross in the main room makes one feel &quot;like walking into a church.&quot;]]></description>
      <category>Fire/Arson Investigations</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.forumworld.com/arson-investigations/read.php?3,5231,5231#msg-5231</guid>
      <pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 2009 04:23:27 +0100</pubDate>
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      <title>[Fire/Arson Investigations] Re: Power Outages - Starting Fires?</title>
      <link>http://www.forumworld.com/arson-investigations/read.php?3,5215,5230#msg-5230</link>
      <author>Nick Markowitz</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Ranges vary from 30-to 50 amps depends on wattage of the elements and age of appliance.


we had a problem in this area sevral years ago when a high voltage line hit a low voltage line and caused numerous problems as well.]]></description>
      <category>Fire/Arson Investigations</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.forumworld.com/arson-investigations/read.php?3,5215,5230#msg-5230</guid>
      <pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 2009 00:40:29 +0100</pubDate>
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      <title>[Fire/Arson Investigations] My Toaster Quest Continues....</title>
      <link>http://www.forumworld.com/arson-investigations/read.php?3,5229,5229#msg-5229</link>
      <author>firecop</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Good Day All...  (Happy New Year)

My search for a toaster manufacturer continues.  Thank you to all who assisted earlier with suggestions and observations.

I have one last ditch effort.  This toaster is a two-slice that can accomodate bagels.  Now every store I've searched and all the toasters I looked at did not have the unique mark I found on the top of the divider between the two bread slots of my subject toaster.  Atop the center divider were two universal symbols embossed in the metal which indicated what side of the bagel faces toward the center (sliced side faces center, for those of you sitting on the edge of your seats).  

Because posting of photos is not available on this forum, artistic exercise is not quite possible with a keyboard, and with apologies to you emoticon junkies, the symbols resemble &quot;(|&quot; and &quot;|)&quot;  quotes excluded.

So...  if you recognize these symbols on your own toaster, or have one in your lab.  I would be beholden to anyone who can answer the question...  &quot;Who manufactures this toaster.&quot;]]></description>
      <category>Fire/Arson Investigations</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.forumworld.com/arson-investigations/read.php?3,5229,5229#msg-5229</guid>
      <pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 2008 23:25:55 +0100</pubDate>
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    <item>
      <title>[Fire/Arson Investigations] CPSC Recalls a How-to book</title>
      <link>http://www.forumworld.com/arson-investigations/read.php?3,5228,5228#msg-5228</link>
      <author>John J. Lentini, CFEI</author>
      <description><![CDATA[I think this is a first.

To see this recall on CPSC's web site, including pictures of the recalled product, please go to:

http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml09/09078.html]]></description>
      <category>Fire/Arson Investigations</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.forumworld.com/arson-investigations/read.php?3,5228,5228#msg-5228</guid>
      <pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 2008 18:58:19 +0100</pubDate>
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    <item>
      <title>[Fire/Arson Investigations] Re: Power Outages - Starting Fires?</title>
      <link>http://www.forumworld.com/arson-investigations/read.php?3,5215,5227#msg-5227</link>
      <author>JHooker</author>
      <description><![CDATA[Stormin,

Thanks for the information.  I found your last paragraph particularly interesting regarding voltage drop and current rise.  Question? - Power is returned to service after 12 hours, I have an oven/range protected with a double throw 30amp circuit breaker (I thought an oven/range needed a 50amp), could this voltage drop create a significant enough current rise in the oven/range PC board to ignite? 

I'm not an electrical engineer so this is pretty green to me.  I'm grabbing at straws and shooting in the dark so to speak.  All my fire patterns seem to point to the oven/range (which was off) at the time of the fire.  The appliance power cord and wall receptacle appeared unaffected but the control board at the back of the range was completely destroyed.  

P.S.  I must be one of the few with common sense - I immediately turned off my 200 amp main disconnect, then all my branch circuits.  When the power was restored, I turned on the main then slowly brought the house back online.

Aloha Jeff]]></description>
      <category>Fire/Arson Investigations</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.forumworld.com/arson-investigations/read.php?3,5215,5227#msg-5227</guid>
      <pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 2008 18:46:18 +0100</pubDate>
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    <item>
      <title>[Fire/Arson Investigations] Re: smouldering of timber structure</title>
      <link>http://www.forumworld.com/arson-investigations/read.php?3,5224,5226#msg-5226</link>
      <author>knightgogo</author>
      <description><![CDATA[after the first fire, electricity supply had been cut off.  The room of fire origin (for second fire) was vacant, meaning items like sofas,tv, air-con had been removed.  the only possible accidental cause that i could think of would be the smoldering fire of wooden partitioned wall.]]></description>
      <category>Fire/Arson Investigations</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.forumworld.com/arson-investigations/read.php?3,5224,5226#msg-5226</guid>
      <pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 2008 05:54:39 +0100</pubDate>
    </item>
    <item>
      <title>[Fire/Arson Investigations] Re: smouldering of timber structure</title>
      <link>http://www.forumworld.com/arson-investigations/read.php?3,5224,5225#msg-5225</link>
      <author>cda</author>
      <description><![CDATA[45 hours seems like a stretch

we had a house fire where we think the fire smoldered in the flex duct and broke out about 10 hours later


any utilities still on in the building???]]></description>
      <category>Fire/Arson Investigations</category>
      <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.forumworld.com/arson-investigations/read.php?3,5224,5225#msg-5225</guid>
      <pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 2008 05:25:49 +0100</pubDate>
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