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Court Rules fire investigation is practice of "engineering"
Posted by: jgmcfps (IP Logged)
Date: August 18, 2006 08:51AM
The Alabama Supreme Court in a recent decision has ruled that the investigation of fires and fire inspection activities (public and private) consititute the practice of engineering. Under this ruling if you are not a registered engineer in the State of Alabama is it ILLEGAL for you to conduct an inspection, investigate a fire or even testify about such matters.
The following was recently posted on the state fire related BB and provides more details.
If you want a full copy of the decision, contact me off line.
As pointed out in the following BB the board is considering issuing an advisory opinion in this matter. The overall content of that advisory opinion would clarify the board's position that neither fire inspection, fire
investigation, or accident reconstruction investigation are covered by the
licensure law for engineers and therefore anyone doing this type work,
public or private, is exempt from the law.
Until this advisory opinion is issued, the board is taking the position that a person must apply for a "declaratory ruling" in each and every case where expert testimony will be offered. In other words, until the board clarifies the matter you have to get "approval" from the engineering registration board to testify in matters involving fire investigation and code enforcement.
You can contact the board at [www.bels.state.al.us]
I urge everyone who engages in these activies to contact our state engineering registration board and URGE them to clarify this matter as soon as possible.
Here is the original posting on a AL state fire BB:
From: J. Hinton
To: Baldwin County Fire Chiefs ; AFCA@yahoogroups.com ; aavfd ; Alabama Fire Chiefs'
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2006 10:16 AM
Subject: [aavfd] Very Important Information
Fire Inspectors and Investigators Testifying as Experts
On Friday July 28, 2006, the Alabama State Supreme Court issued an eighteen
page ruling effectively prohibiting fire inspectors and fire investigators
in Alabama from testifying as experts in criminal and civil court in
Alabama.
The ruling stems from a 1997 lawsuit filed in Mobile County, Alabama [Mobile
v. Hunter]. A copy of the ruling which provides additional details as to
the initial suit itself may be obtained through Westlaw ---So.2d--- 2006 WL
2089914 (Ala). Local fire inspectors and marshals may obtain a copy of this
through their city attorney.
Prior to the ruling by the Supreme Court, the director of the Engineers
Licensure Board for the State of Alabama gave a deposition related to the
case. In the deposition, she made statements, which when combined with the
vague language of the state law related to the requirements for the
licensing of engineers, resulted in the opinion which has adversely and
significantly crippled fire inspectors and investigators in Alabama. It
should be noted, that neither the lawsuit, Mobile v Hunter, nor the
engineers licensing law involve the professions of fire inspection or
investigation nor the activities associated with those professions.
Although the ruling is lengthy, the basic results are simple - no fire
inspector nor investigator in Alabama, whether they are working in the
public or private arena, can be qualified to testify in civil or criminal
court as an expert witness on any subject unless the fire inspector or
investigator is also an engineer registered with the Engineers Licensure
Board for the State of Alabama. However, the second part of this ruling
would also mean that if a fire inspector or investigator must be a
registered engineer in Alabama, then every time an inspector or investigator
has gone out and conducted an inspection, enforced codes, or investigated
any fire, or testified as an expert since 1997, they have committed a
misdemeanor.
Due to this ruling, pending cases throughout Alabama have been continued as
the fire experts to be used by plaintiff and defense attorneys in civil
cases, and prosecution and defense attorneys in criminal cases, may no
longer be used to provide expert testimony. In addition, if the Supreme
Court ruling were to be left standing, with no clarification of the intent
and scope of the law by the licensure board, it is believed that anyone
convicted of arson, based upon expert testimony in Alabama since the Mobile
v Hunter case was filed in 1997, can appeal their conviction based on
illegal testimony and that they may go free.
An additional effect this has on fire inspectors and investigators is
criminal charges against them. The licensure law makes it a misdemeanor for
anyone to violate that law and each act on each day is a separate offense.
On Thursday August 10, 2006, the Alabama Licensure Board met. Approximately
twenty people attended this previously scheduled regular meeting of the
board, due to the Supreme Court Ruling. Testimony was given by several
witnesses and members of the board asked questions. Only one person offered
testimony supporting the ruling, the attorney who favored the Supreme Court
decision to overrule the Circuit Court of Mobile County which had said the
law itself was unconstitutional.
Additional testimony was taken on Friday August 11th. The chairman of the
board understands the board has forty-five days to issue an advisory
opinion, although it can be issued anytime prior to that.
The effects of the ruling are even broader than stated here, for this
applies to all professions that are called upon to provide expert testimony
in Alabama. For example, an engineer with General Motors can not testify as
an expert, in Alabama, on the design of a GM automobile unless the engineer
is also a registered engineer in this state. Medical doctors can not
testify as experts on medical issues including the cause of death, unless
they too are engineers registered in this state. The examples are endless.
A proposed advisory opinion has been provided to the board by an attorney
from the private sector. The overall content of that advisory opinion would
clarify the board's position that neither fire inspection, fire
investigation, or accident reconstruction investigation are covered by the
licensure law for engineers and therefore anyone doing this type work,
public or private, is exempt from the law. If this is the board's decision,
it will satisfy the Supreme Court Ruling, which will allow public and
private inspectors and investigators to go back to work without fear of
having their cases thrown out of court or them being arrested for committing
a misdemeanor.
As soon as an opinion is released, I will be notified and receive a copy. I
will then contact the association so the members can be advised.
John S. Robison
Former Alabama State Fire Marshal
Owner of Robison Consulting, LLC
James Hinton, Chief
Foley Fire Department
P.O. Drawer 400
Foley, AL 36536
251.943.1266
251.943.7432 Fax
James G. Munger, PhD, FIFireE, CFPS
www.qdotengineering.com
W3NFA
The following was recently posted on the state fire related BB and provides more details.
If you want a full copy of the decision, contact me off line.
As pointed out in the following BB the board is considering issuing an advisory opinion in this matter. The overall content of that advisory opinion would clarify the board's position that neither fire inspection, fire
investigation, or accident reconstruction investigation are covered by the
licensure law for engineers and therefore anyone doing this type work,
public or private, is exempt from the law.
Until this advisory opinion is issued, the board is taking the position that a person must apply for a "declaratory ruling" in each and every case where expert testimony will be offered. In other words, until the board clarifies the matter you have to get "approval" from the engineering registration board to testify in matters involving fire investigation and code enforcement.
You can contact the board at [www.bels.state.al.us]
I urge everyone who engages in these activies to contact our state engineering registration board and URGE them to clarify this matter as soon as possible.
Here is the original posting on a AL state fire BB:
From: J. Hinton
To: Baldwin County Fire Chiefs ; AFCA@yahoogroups.com ; aavfd ; Alabama Fire Chiefs'
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2006 10:16 AM
Subject: [aavfd] Very Important Information
Fire Inspectors and Investigators Testifying as Experts
On Friday July 28, 2006, the Alabama State Supreme Court issued an eighteen
page ruling effectively prohibiting fire inspectors and fire investigators
in Alabama from testifying as experts in criminal and civil court in
Alabama.
The ruling stems from a 1997 lawsuit filed in Mobile County, Alabama [Mobile
v. Hunter]. A copy of the ruling which provides additional details as to
the initial suit itself may be obtained through Westlaw ---So.2d--- 2006 WL
2089914 (Ala). Local fire inspectors and marshals may obtain a copy of this
through their city attorney.
Prior to the ruling by the Supreme Court, the director of the Engineers
Licensure Board for the State of Alabama gave a deposition related to the
case. In the deposition, she made statements, which when combined with the
vague language of the state law related to the requirements for the
licensing of engineers, resulted in the opinion which has adversely and
significantly crippled fire inspectors and investigators in Alabama. It
should be noted, that neither the lawsuit, Mobile v Hunter, nor the
engineers licensing law involve the professions of fire inspection or
investigation nor the activities associated with those professions.
Although the ruling is lengthy, the basic results are simple - no fire
inspector nor investigator in Alabama, whether they are working in the
public or private arena, can be qualified to testify in civil or criminal
court as an expert witness on any subject unless the fire inspector or
investigator is also an engineer registered with the Engineers Licensure
Board for the State of Alabama. However, the second part of this ruling
would also mean that if a fire inspector or investigator must be a
registered engineer in Alabama, then every time an inspector or investigator
has gone out and conducted an inspection, enforced codes, or investigated
any fire, or testified as an expert since 1997, they have committed a
misdemeanor.
Due to this ruling, pending cases throughout Alabama have been continued as
the fire experts to be used by plaintiff and defense attorneys in civil
cases, and prosecution and defense attorneys in criminal cases, may no
longer be used to provide expert testimony. In addition, if the Supreme
Court ruling were to be left standing, with no clarification of the intent
and scope of the law by the licensure board, it is believed that anyone
convicted of arson, based upon expert testimony in Alabama since the Mobile
v Hunter case was filed in 1997, can appeal their conviction based on
illegal testimony and that they may go free.
An additional effect this has on fire inspectors and investigators is
criminal charges against them. The licensure law makes it a misdemeanor for
anyone to violate that law and each act on each day is a separate offense.
On Thursday August 10, 2006, the Alabama Licensure Board met. Approximately
twenty people attended this previously scheduled regular meeting of the
board, due to the Supreme Court Ruling. Testimony was given by several
witnesses and members of the board asked questions. Only one person offered
testimony supporting the ruling, the attorney who favored the Supreme Court
decision to overrule the Circuit Court of Mobile County which had said the
law itself was unconstitutional.
Additional testimony was taken on Friday August 11th. The chairman of the
board understands the board has forty-five days to issue an advisory
opinion, although it can be issued anytime prior to that.
The effects of the ruling are even broader than stated here, for this
applies to all professions that are called upon to provide expert testimony
in Alabama. For example, an engineer with General Motors can not testify as
an expert, in Alabama, on the design of a GM automobile unless the engineer
is also a registered engineer in this state. Medical doctors can not
testify as experts on medical issues including the cause of death, unless
they too are engineers registered in this state. The examples are endless.
A proposed advisory opinion has been provided to the board by an attorney
from the private sector. The overall content of that advisory opinion would
clarify the board's position that neither fire inspection, fire
investigation, or accident reconstruction investigation are covered by the
licensure law for engineers and therefore anyone doing this type work,
public or private, is exempt from the law. If this is the board's decision,
it will satisfy the Supreme Court Ruling, which will allow public and
private inspectors and investigators to go back to work without fear of
having their cases thrown out of court or them being arrested for committing
a misdemeanor.
As soon as an opinion is released, I will be notified and receive a copy. I
will then contact the association so the members can be advised.
John S. Robison
Former Alabama State Fire Marshal
Owner of Robison Consulting, LLC
James Hinton, Chief
Foley Fire Department
P.O. Drawer 400
Foley, AL 36536
251.943.1266
251.943.7432 Fax
James G. Munger, PhD, FIFireE, CFPS
www.qdotengineering.com
W3NFA
| Subject | Views | Written By | Posted |
|---|---|---|---|
 Court Rules fire investigation is practice of "engineering" |
1915 | jgmcfps | 08/18/2006 08:51AM |
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