Fire/Arson Investigations :  Fire/Arson Investigations The fastest message board... ever.
A place to ask questions and add to probative and informative discussions associated with the various aspects of the field of fire investigation. -- FORUM RULES---BE CIVIL AND NO NAME CALLING, NO BELITTLING, NO BERATING, NO DENIGRATING others. Postings in violation of these rules can be removed or editted to remove the offending remarks at the discretion of the moderators and/or site administrator. 
Re: Exploding aerosol cans spreading fires
Posted by: Jim Mazerat (IP Logged)
Date: December 21, 2006 07:02PM

You are correct in that according to witnesses the K-Mart fire originated in the area where the carburetor cleaner was located. That the cause of the incident was reported to be ignition of those vapors, after being released from the container, by an electric forklift that was parked in the isle next to the cleaner. The failure mechanism releasing the vapors was a falling container struck an object that caused a failure in the container. There growth of the fire was contributed to a number of different items, on of which was the amount of product all in one location. No witness ever said, nor was it ever determined that the aerosol rocketing contained the cleaner.

In discussing the use of LPG as a propellant, what is the average amount of this gas in an aerosol container? Most people do not know that much of the product in aerosols is being dispensed through the use of carbon dioxide and not LPG. In these cases the propellant is no longer a potential hazard. Based on your comment if there is no LPG vapor there is no path for the flames to follow to the displaced liquid.

I agree fugitive products that can be called an accelerant can be a problem on any fire scene. What the investigator must do is evaluate all products in the area, and working with other experts reach a conclusion as to the viability of this material coming from another source during the incident or was placed there intentionally to accelerate the fire’s growth.

In one area I must agree with you that our ideas are different. I though the idea behind 921 and other research was to clarify information being used by investigators in reaching their conclusions. In this case, rocketing aerosols, we have 10 years of research conducted by Factory Mutual. In all the burn scenarios conducted during this period that never had a rocket aerosol set a secondary fire. I will agree with Dan in that this in itself is not proof it will never take place, but it does give one food for though as to the possibilities of it taking place. So what I am asking for some one to produce is a rebuttal to the Factory Mutual test. Presently, I have not been able to find this type of documentation. If someone can show me flaws in the research conducted by Factory Mutual, I am open to reconsideration of the facts.

Here you say, “the burden properly lies with the investigator to conduct any research necessary to positively eliminate spray can effects before declaring multiple origins.” I say the burden lies with the investigator to prove it can take place before declaring this is what happened during the fire.

To so extent I believe we both are correct. You stated, “The problem, of course, is that if an investigator has already summarily dismissed aerosol cans in some previous investigation, it may be difficult to persuade him that he may have been to hasty.” Could you think of this in reverse? I would say, “The problem, of course, is that if an investigator has already summarily concluded rocketing aerosol cans caused secondary fires in some previous investigation, it may be difficult to persuade him that he may have been to hasty in reaching this conclusion before establishing supporting evidence for the possibility of this event taking place.”



Subject Views Written By Posted
  Exploding aerosol cans spreading fires 2263 John J. Lentini, CFEI 12/16/2006 10:18AM
  Re: Exploding aerosol cans spreading fires 1261 cda 12/16/2006 11:22PM
  Re: Exploding aerosol cans spreading fires 1279 cda 12/16/2006 11:27PM
  Re: Exploding aerosol cans spreading fires 1266 cda 12/16/2006 11:29PM
  Re: Exploding aerosol cans spreading fires 1220 jgmcfps 12/18/2006 10:03AM
  Re: Exploding aerosol cans spreading fires 1201 dahebert 12/18/2006 04:20PM
  Re: Exploding aerosol cans spreading fires 1178 John J. Lentini, CFEI 01/07/2007 09:06AM
  Re: Exploding aerosol cans spreading fires 1003 MIKE 01/12/2007 10:48AM
  Re: Exploding aerosol cans spreading fires 1193 Jim Mazerat 12/19/2006 12:06PM
  Re: Exploding aerosol cans spreading fires 1103 cda 12/20/2006 08:47AM
  Re: Exploding aerosol cans spreading fires 1432 Gerald Hurst 12/20/2006 10:50AM
  Re: Exploding aerosol cans spreading fires 1133 Gerald Hurst 12/20/2006 01:39PM
  Re: Exploding aerosol cans spreading fires 1110 Jim Mazerat 12/20/2006 08:33PM
  Re: Exploding aerosol cans spreading fires 1078 Gerald Hurst 12/21/2006 09:18AM
  Re: Exploding aerosol cans spreading fires 1126 Jim Mazerat 12/21/2006 11:59AM
  Re: Exploding aerosol cans spreading fires 1178 dahebert 12/21/2006 10:10AM
  Re: Exploding aerosol cans spreading fires 1100 Gerald Hurst 12/21/2006 05:32PM
  Re: Exploding aerosol cans spreading fires 1122 Jim Mazerat 12/21/2006 07:02PM
  Re: Exploding aerosol cans spreading fires 1067 Gerald Hurst 12/22/2006 10:49AM
  Re: Exploding aerosol cans spreading fires 1101 Jim Mazerat 12/22/2006 12:04PM
  Re: Exploding aerosol cans spreading fires 1083 Gerald Hurst 12/22/2006 01:27PM
  Re: Exploding aerosol cans spreading fires 1053 Jim Mazerat 12/22/2006 03:45PM
  Re: Exploding aerosol cans spreading fires 983 Jim Mazerat 12/22/2006 12:58PM
  Re: Exploding aerosol cans spreading fires 1045 Gerald Hurst 12/22/2006 01:28PM
  Re: Exploding aerosol cans spreading fires 1148 Anthony Tester 12/19/2006 08:34PM
  Re: Exploding aerosol cans spreading fires 1051 Jim Mazerat 12/20/2006 10:05PM
  Re: Exploding aerosol cans spreading fires 1042 Jim Mazerat 12/21/2006 04:49PM
  Re: Exploding aerosol cans spreading fires 1098 Jim Mazerat 12/23/2006 12:25PM


Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
This forum powered by Phorum.