Pat:

I appreciate your posting and the information you provided is informative for all. However, like I said in my original posting, I am looking for documentation of any cases where a fire investigator was discredited and/or testimony tossed strictly due to a 1033 challenge. I have received one response (Thank you RF- you know who you are) but I have still not been able to verify its content due to the weekend. Anyone else have any experiences they can provide?

I understand your points but in all reality, at least out here on the west coast in the 9th circus, it probably won't be as big of a deal as one would hope. The reason is mainly because for one...engineers are technically not subject to its requirements given the specific legal wording in their Engineering Licenses which allow them through their formal education and training to determine (generic standard definition here):

"(1) “Practice of engineering” or “practice of professional engineering” means doing any of the following:

(a) Performing any professional service or creative work requiring engineering education, training and experience.

(b) Applying special knowledge of the mathematical, physical and engineering sciences to such professional services or creative work as consultation, investigation, testimony, evaluation, planning, design and services during construction, manufacture or fabrication for the purpose of ensuring compliance with specifications and design, in connection with any public or private utilities, structures, buildings, machines, equipment, processes, works or projects."

In addition, they may not be subject to the requirements due to NFPA's 1033 Title and Scope states, "NFPA 1033: Standard for Professional Qualifications for Fire Investigator" & "Document Scope: This standard shall identify the professional level of job performance requirements for fire investigators." It does not discuss anything about Engineers nor their legal practice and training as an Engineer. Some might think this is a moot point, but in fact it is not.

As you are aware, Fire Investigators by law are required to be licensed PI's in 41 of the 50 states, with exception of those few who have decided that we are not subject to their requirements or are exempt through various laws. However, only a few states have decided that engineers need to also be licensed also as fire investigators. Heck, even recently the Alabama Supreme Court decided that Fire Investigators must be licensed as Engineers even though the Alabama Engineering Board stated that Fire Investigators are not engineers and do not need to be licensed (Makes you wonder where this one is heading Judicial vs Executive Conflict).

My point is that currently Engineers are exempt from statutory PI requirements due to their statutory language and and are even allowed to practice fire investigation without being certified. By definition they are subject to eh requirements of 921, but they may not be subject to the requirements of 1033 by strict definition alone. Many attorneys I have worked with won't discuss 1033 because while it is a standard for fire investigators, it is NOT a standard for engineers and therefore they are not subject to its requirements.

I truly hope that 1033 will be applied evenly across the board to ALL who practice fire investigation, regardless of whether they are engineers or true C&O's. Maybe that is something the 1033 TC should consider in a TIA or next edition. It is my opinion that the standard PI Legal Definition should be included in the next edition of 1033 and maybe even the title of the Document changed to be more technically accurate and more widely encompass ALL who practice our profession.

(d) The cause of or responsibility for fires, libels, losses, accidents, damages or injuries to persons or property; or (e) Evidence to be used before any court, board, officer, referee, arbitrator or investigation committee."

Perhaps also Pat, this is something NAFI may want to look into as well to take whatever action is deemed necessary.

I hope I did not offend anyone here, but the playing field needs to be leveled and kept fair for all to work in.

Have a safe and happy week.

Chris