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Re: Acceptable Level of Certainty
Posted by: Jim Mazerat (IP Logged)
Date: February 09, 2007 08:17PM

Let’s see if I can answer your question. The percentage idea falls in well with the level of proof needed in legal proceedings. It is something that has been accepted and people can identify with it. Most people have been brought up being told that in criminal cases the burden of proof is beyond a reasonable doubt and in civil cases it is a preponderance of the evidence. People relate the civil proof as to being slightly above 50% to reach a preponderance of the evidence. Because so much of fire investigation interacts with the legal system it was easy to adopt this thinking. Problem is one has been adopted to cover both civil and criminal. We do not have a degree of certainty for criminal that is higher that that for civil. As of now, we are told that “probable”, which is being defined as being higher than 50% and a preponderance of the evidence, is sufficient to establish the cause for a fire for both.

I agree that “probable” is greater than 50%, but my question is how much above the 50% level is acceptable. Using the term flip of a coin was a little flip it on my part and I could have been better said. The point I was trying to make is that the difference between two hypotheses may only be two one hundreds of one percent and to choose one over the other may be nothing more than something as simple as flipping a coin.

There are those individuals that will disagree with what I am saying and say the level of proof is decided, not in the field, but in the court room. I can agree with that if the correct questions are asked of the expert so that the trier of fact will have all the information needed to completely evaluate all the facts. What if the question is never asked of the expert as to the level of certainty of his or her conclusion, or what percentage do they assign to their level of certainty of the conclusion. The expert is saying to the judge or jury this is the cause of the fire, not of the hypotheses developed I choose this one over the others and give it a 51% chance of being correct. If the expert did this he or she would still be within the guidelines of 921 for determining the cause, but how do you think the trier of fact would accept this information?

I am not saying my ideas on this subject are right or wrong, it is just something I would like people to think about when and if they are making a call as to the cause of a fire. If they were the person this determination could affect, what level of certainty would they be willing to accept? I have seen people whose lives have been negatively been affected by these type of determination and I believe every time one is made it reflects poorly on our profession. I know we can do better, and would like to see more effort to the profession going in that direction.



Subject Views Written By Posted
  Acceptable Level of Certainty 1672 Jim Mazerat 02/03/2007 09:47PM
  Re: Acceptable Level of Certainty 1053 Jim Mazerat 02/04/2007 12:11PM
  Re: Acceptable Level of Certainty 920 MIJ 02/04/2007 02:37PM
  Re: Acceptable Level of Certainty 1090 Jim Mazerat 02/04/2007 05:12PM
  Re: Acceptable Level of Certainty 1000 jmorse 02/04/2007 07:15PM
  Re: Acceptable Level of Certainty 942 Jim Mazerat 02/05/2007 10:37AM
  Re: Acceptable Level of Certainty 1011 MIJ 02/05/2007 11:35AM
  Re: Acceptable Level of Certainty 950 jgmcfps 02/08/2007 11:09AM
  One more comment 948 jgmcfps 02/08/2007 11:13AM
  Re: Acceptable Level of Certainty 1036 Jim Mazerat 02/08/2007 11:55AM
  Re: Acceptable Level of Certainty 888 jgmcfps 02/08/2007 02:59PM
  Re: Acceptable Level of Certainty 883 SJAvato 02/08/2007 03:59PM
  Re: Acceptable Level of Certainty 1021 Jim Mazerat 02/08/2007 05:15PM
  Re: Acceptable Level of Certainty 919 Jim Mazerat 02/08/2007 05:21PM
  Define "probable" 988 Gerald Hurst 02/14/2007 01:05PM
  Re: Define "probable" 1007 PMK140 02/14/2007 04:12PM
  Re: Define "probable" 948 Gerald Hurst 02/14/2007 10:20PM
  Re: Acceptable Level of Certainty 952 jbflanigan 02/05/2007 04:22PM
  Re: Acceptable Level of Certainty 886 Jim Mazerat 02/08/2007 12:13PM
  Re: Acceptable Level of Certainty 856 MIJ 02/08/2007 06:02PM
  Re: Acceptable Level of Certainty 984 Jim Mazerat 02/08/2007 08:10PM
  Re: Acceptable Level of Certainty 954 MIJ 02/09/2007 09:47AM
  Re: Acceptable Level of Certainty 895 jgmcfps 02/09/2007 02:12PM
  Re: Acceptable Level of Certainty 905 MIJ 02/09/2007 03:09PM
  Re: Acceptable Level of Certainty 899 jgmcfps 02/09/2007 04:50PM
  Re: Acceptable Level of Certainty 897 firecop5002 02/09/2007 08:17PM
  Re: Acceptable Level of Certainty 874 Jim Mazerat 02/09/2007 10:01PM
  Re: Acceptable Level of Certainty 826 dahebert 02/10/2007 08:12AM
  Re: Acceptable Level of Certainty 925 Jim Mazerat 02/09/2007 08:17PM
  Re: Acceptable Level of Certainty 1048 jgmcfps 02/10/2007 02:40PM
  Re: Acceptable Level of Certainty 877 Jim Mazerat 02/10/2007 04:36PM
  Re: Acceptable Level of Certainty 1005 jgmcfps 02/11/2007 08:16AM
  Re: Acceptable Level of Certainty 969 Jim Mazerat 02/11/2007 09:10AM
  Re: Acceptable Level of Certainty 1170 John J. Lentini, CFEI 02/16/2007 02:48PM
  Re: Acceptable Level of Certainty 1142 PMK140 02/16/2007 04:30PM
  Re: Acceptable Level of Certainty 974 Jim Mazerat 02/16/2007 07:11PM


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