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Re: Fire Cause Classification
Posted by: dcarpenter (IP Logged)
Date: July 01, 2022 01:26PM

"The issue of intent is not, per se, a fire science issue. Science cannot yet prove whether an action was deliberate or intentional - there's no meter or detector yet developed to "prove" intent. Intent is, however, an issue for fire investigation...or at least for fire analysis as defined in 921. That definition includes determining responsibility for a fire and "responsibility" can include intent (was it willful, deliberate, unintended, foreseeable, etc.) Chapter 12 is full of "intent" assessment issues - "Negligence ...a person has not behaved in a manner of a reasonable prudent person..." Chapter 20 discusses the issue of responsibility in more detail, but "responsibility" is, per 20.5.1 "in the form of an act or omission." The inference in an "Act" is that there was some intent to commit the act and omissions may be willful or deliberate based on intent to not act. And, in 20.5.3 "it is the responsibility of the person who performs the analysis to identify responsibility..." So, intent still underlies many sections in the 2021 edition."

Intent can be inferred from indirect evidence in some, but maybe not all, incidents.

"But, more to what I believe is the issue... how does a fire investigator classify a fire now that the old Chapter 21 Classification has been removed; does 921 allow classification - 921 is not completely mute on classification. Chapter 19, 19.8 Incident Classification "...if an incident requires classification, the investigator should refer to the appropriate classification system." It then refers to examples of classification systems that the investigator may use. The comments presented by the Technical Committee on the 2nd draft of the 2021 edition of 921 states " Since incident classification is addressed in other standards and is dependent on jurisdiction/organization use, providing specific definitions for incident classifications in NFPA 921 is not necessary.” By placing the classification issue in the hands of jurisdictions, I am aware of numerous jurisdictions who have created policies establishing their classification standards. The Technical Committee chose to provide less guidance on classification instead of addressing some of the issues in classification. Thus, leaving the classification up to local jurisdictions and fire investigation agencies to provide their own defined classifications."

The same question holds, how does someone, outside of the Incendiary Fire chapter in 921, reliably determine an incendiary fire. By moving this determination downstream of the fire investigation, how does this change the requirements for evidence?

"The core concern seems to be "what methodology is applied to assess "intent" in a fire investigation?" I suggest that there is a methodology but I'll hold that for another day. The simple answer is - there is no "scientifically reproducible" method. Establishing intent is not part of "science" (It can be assessed by using a method that could be described as similar to the scientific method.) This is an area where fire investigation slides more into its "legal" persona and less in its "science" (My contention is that fire investigation lives in a world where science and "law" overlap and that some things, like determining responsibility edge more toward the law side of the scale.)"

One can use surrogate or indirect evidence using the SM to reach a reliable determination in some, but perhaps, not all incidents.

"A complex issue for sure."

I still do not understand how these changes in NFPA 921 has provided more value added in reaching a reliable determination. Any problems with the previous methodology seem to have been kicked down the path to some other entity and methodology that is not clear.

Douglas J. Carpenter, MScFPE, CFEI, PE, FSFPE
Vice President & Principal Engineer
Combustion Science & Engineering, Inc.
8940 Old Annapolis Road, Suite L
Columbia, MD 21045
(410) 884-3266
(410) 884-3267 (fax)
www.csefire.com



Subject Views Written By Posted
  Fire Cause Classification 570 dcarpenter 04/26/2022 01:05PM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 324 Fire 05/01/2022 01:51PM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 309 dcarpenter 05/02/2022 10:46AM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 303 dcarpenter 05/02/2022 03:42PM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 306 cda 05/03/2022 09:25AM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 311 dcarpenter 05/03/2022 12:58PM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 279 cda 05/04/2022 08:36AM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 296 dcarpenter 05/04/2022 10:12AM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 272 dcarpenter 05/04/2022 10:14AM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 282 cda 05/05/2022 09:41AM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 288 dcarpenter 05/05/2022 10:00AM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 308 cda 05/05/2022 12:04PM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 269 dcarpenter 05/05/2022 02:15PM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 278 Fire 05/11/2022 06:20PM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 260 dcarpenter 05/12/2022 09:12AM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 259 J L Mazerat 05/12/2022 11:56AM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 258 dcarpenter 05/12/2022 12:28PM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 273 J L Mazerat 05/12/2022 12:46PM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 284 J L Mazerat 05/09/2022 10:44AM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 280 dcarpenter 05/09/2022 08:30PM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 250 J L Mazerat 05/10/2022 08:52AM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 297 dcarpenter 05/10/2022 09:56AM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 247 dcarpenter 05/10/2022 09:59AM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 244 dcarpenter 05/10/2022 11:25AM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 251 J L Mazerat 05/11/2022 05:54PM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 246 dcarpenter 05/12/2022 09:15AM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 255 J L Mazerat 05/12/2022 11:50AM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 249 dcarpenter 05/12/2022 12:35PM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 253 J L Mazerat 05/12/2022 02:18PM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 257 dcarpenter 05/13/2022 08:48AM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 237 J L Mazerat 05/13/2022 05:09PM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 227 cda 06/15/2022 01:12PM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 283 J L Mazerat 05/11/2022 05:51PM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 248 dcarpenter 05/12/2022 09:18AM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 254 J L Mazerat 05/12/2022 11:59AM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 268 dcarpenter 05/12/2022 12:36PM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 254 J L Mazerat 05/12/2022 02:21PM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 228 SJAvato 06/30/2022 10:57AM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 221 J L Mazerat 07/01/2022 09:27AM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 224 dcarpenter 07/01/2022 01:26PM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 228 SJAvato 07/01/2022 03:43PM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 207 J L Mazerat 07/03/2022 10:03AM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 209 J L Mazerat 07/03/2022 11:52AM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 217 dcarpenter 07/05/2022 09:32AM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 283 B.Gordon 06/09/2022 07:32AM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 275 Chris Bloom, CJBFireConsultant 06/10/2022 01:42AM


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