Fire/Arson Investigations :  Fire/Arson Investigations The fastest message board... ever.
A place to ask questions and add to probative and informative discussions associated with the various aspects of the field of fire investigation. -- FORUM RULES---BE CIVIL AND NO NAME CALLING, NO BELITTLING, NO BERATING, NO DENIGRATING others. Postings in violation of these rules can be removed or editted to remove the offending remarks at the discretion of the moderators and/or site administrator. 
Re: Fire Cause Classification
Posted by: dcarpenter (IP Logged)
Date: July 05, 2022 09:32AM

I agree. Back to the wild west ...

For a determination of criminality, there needs to be a determination that an arson has occurred (a legal construct). Working backwards, there is a need to determination that the arson fire was an incendiary fire (a non-legal construct). An incendiary fire produces the transition from an accidental fire, with human involvement with no intent to start a fire where one was not going to be initiated, otherwise, to an incendiary fire with human involvement, where there was an intent to initiate a fire where one was not going to be initiated, otherwise.

The discriminating factor is human intent. Evidence of human intent can exist in some, but perhaps, not all incidents. I think this is the hurdle and battlefield, where the fire investigation community is looking to close the loop on the production of "undetermined" fires that goes against gut instinct, experience, unreliable application of scientific methodology, or subjective determinations. Evidence does not always exist.

The hurdle is the argument that no one can determine human intent. In the justice system, the use of "indirect evidence," "circumstantial evidence," or surrogate evidence. The chapter on Incendiary Fires provided the path for this type of evidence to be used with reliability within the construct of the SM. The reality is that this evidence does not always exist in incendiary fires, so the most reliable outcome may have to be "accidental" until evidence is produced that disproves the accidental fire determination, and simultaneously, allows for the formulation of a valid hypothesis of an incendiary fire to be formulated.

So if the fire investigator has been removed from the process of making an incendiary fire determination, then who is responsible for such a determination? Again, what evidence and methodology is being employed to reach such a determination. How is the removal of classification chapter advancing the reliability of determination in the fire investigation community?

As 921 exists today, a determination of the three (3) elements of a Fire Cause with human involvement may not ever allow any fire incident to be determination to be an incendiary fire. How is this an advancement in the reliability and practice of fire investigations?

A human can be the factor that brings the first fuel ignited and the competent ignition source for the first item ignited to initiate the fire. But without the application of evidence of human intent, 921 will always produce an accidental fire with no ability to determine an incendiary fire.

Seems like the community is moving backwards, not forwards.

Douglas J. Carpenter, MScFPE, CFEI, PE, FSFPE
Vice President & Principal Engineer
Combustion Science & Engineering, Inc.
8940 Old Annapolis Road, Suite L
Columbia, MD 21045
(410) 884-3266
(410) 884-3267 (fax)
www.csefire.com



Subject Views Written By Posted
  Fire Cause Classification 570 dcarpenter 04/26/2022 01:05PM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 324 Fire 05/01/2022 01:51PM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 309 dcarpenter 05/02/2022 10:46AM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 303 dcarpenter 05/02/2022 03:42PM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 306 cda 05/03/2022 09:25AM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 311 dcarpenter 05/03/2022 12:58PM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 279 cda 05/04/2022 08:36AM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 296 dcarpenter 05/04/2022 10:12AM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 272 dcarpenter 05/04/2022 10:14AM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 282 cda 05/05/2022 09:41AM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 288 dcarpenter 05/05/2022 10:00AM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 308 cda 05/05/2022 12:04PM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 269 dcarpenter 05/05/2022 02:15PM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 278 Fire 05/11/2022 06:20PM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 260 dcarpenter 05/12/2022 09:12AM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 259 J L Mazerat 05/12/2022 11:56AM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 258 dcarpenter 05/12/2022 12:28PM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 273 J L Mazerat 05/12/2022 12:46PM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 284 J L Mazerat 05/09/2022 10:44AM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 280 dcarpenter 05/09/2022 08:30PM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 250 J L Mazerat 05/10/2022 08:52AM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 297 dcarpenter 05/10/2022 09:56AM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 247 dcarpenter 05/10/2022 09:59AM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 244 dcarpenter 05/10/2022 11:25AM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 251 J L Mazerat 05/11/2022 05:54PM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 246 dcarpenter 05/12/2022 09:15AM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 255 J L Mazerat 05/12/2022 11:50AM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 249 dcarpenter 05/12/2022 12:35PM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 253 J L Mazerat 05/12/2022 02:18PM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 257 dcarpenter 05/13/2022 08:48AM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 237 J L Mazerat 05/13/2022 05:09PM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 227 cda 06/15/2022 01:12PM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 283 J L Mazerat 05/11/2022 05:51PM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 248 dcarpenter 05/12/2022 09:18AM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 254 J L Mazerat 05/12/2022 11:59AM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 268 dcarpenter 05/12/2022 12:36PM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 254 J L Mazerat 05/12/2022 02:21PM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 228 SJAvato 06/30/2022 10:57AM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 221 J L Mazerat 07/01/2022 09:27AM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 224 dcarpenter 07/01/2022 01:26PM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 228 SJAvato 07/01/2022 03:43PM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 207 J L Mazerat 07/03/2022 10:03AM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 209 J L Mazerat 07/03/2022 11:52AM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 216 dcarpenter 07/05/2022 09:32AM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 283 B.Gordon 06/09/2022 07:32AM
  Re: Fire Cause Classification 275 Chris Bloom, CJBFireConsultant 06/10/2022 01:42AM


Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
This forum powered by Phorum.