Fire/Arson Investigations :  Fire/Arson Investigations The fastest message board... ever.
A place to ask questions and add to probative and informative discussions associated with the various aspects of the field of fire investigation. -- FORUM RULES---BE CIVIL AND NO NAME CALLING, NO BELITTLING, NO BERATING, NO DENIGRATING others. Postings in violation of these rules can be removed or editted to remove the offending remarks at the discretion of the moderators and/or site administrator. 
Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM
Posted by: John J. Lentini, CFEI (IP Logged)
Date: October 19, 2006 08:59AM

Pat's answer is quite correct. Because 921 is not suitable for adoption into a statute by reference, NFPA cannot call it a code. Because it does not contain mandatory language, in the NFPA system is cannot be called a standard.

That does not prevent anyone else from adopting it as a standard, as many courts and insurance companies have done. It's a standard of care.

All NFPA documents are, in the larger sense of the word, "standards." They are developed by a standards development organization (SDO) according to rules promulgated by entities such as ISO and ANSI that accredit SDOs.

NFPA 921, in fact, formerly carried the designation "An American National Standard," on the cover until enough people who either did not understand the term or did not like the term complained to the Standards Council. So the designation was removed from the cover. But the careful reader will note that even in the current edition, the second paragraph of the introduction reads as follows: "This edition of NFPA 921 was appreoved as an American National Standard on January 16, 2004.

The ways in which SDOs develop standards are not simple, and without some experience in the process, some may find it difficult to understand.

Each SDO must develop its own rules that meet several important criteria. Here is a general overview of the requirements for a voluntary standards development process.

OMB Circular 119 defines “voluntary consensus standards” as having the following 5 attributes:

1. Openness
2. Balance of interest
3. Due process
4. An appeals process
5. Consensus, which is defined as...

General agreement, but not necessarily unanimity,

and includes a process for attempting to resolve objections by interested parties, as long as all comments have been fairly considered,

each objector is advised of the disposition of his or her objections and the reasons why,

and the consensus body members are given an opportunity to change their votes after reviewing the comments.

The NFPA process meets all of these requirements.

Some may see the word "voluntary" as an issue.

What voluntary means in this context is that you are free to use a standard or not. BUT, once you say you are using the standard, or agree in a contract to use the standard, you are bound by its terms. Certainly that is open to some interpretation, but if you say you are following NFPA 921, then base an arson call on spalling, or the appearance of a bun pattern, or an unconfirmed canine alert, or crazed glass, there is a disconnect.

Further, even though NFPA 921 is a voluntary consensus standard, a court may decide that individuals who voluntarily choose not to follow it will not be allowed to testify because their methodology is not reliable.

Now, if it's not that they object to being held to a standard of care, WHY do people object to NFPA 921 being called a standard?

John Lentini, CFI, D-ABC
Fire Investigation Consultant
Florida Keys
[www.firescientist.com]



Subject Views Written By Posted
  National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 2383 John J. Lentini, CFEI 10/11/2006 11:20AM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1297 MIJ 10/13/2006 02:57PM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1296 PMK140 10/14/2006 06:30AM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1368 Tony La Palio 10/16/2006 01:45PM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1285 MIJ 10/16/2006 03:24PM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1245 PMK140 10/16/2006 07:10PM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1229 MIJ 10/16/2006 08:17PM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1136 Jim Mazerat 10/18/2006 10:30AM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1246 Ray C. Davis, Fire Loss Expert 10/17/2006 12:23PM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1178 MIJ 10/17/2006 01:13PM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1305 PMK140 10/17/2006 01:15PM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1165 ttijerina 10/17/2006 01:42PM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1209 PMK140 10/17/2006 02:03PM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1180 MIJ 10/17/2006 02:21PM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1155 Ray C. Davis, Fire Loss Expert 10/17/2006 02:42PM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1190 Ray C. Davis, Fire Loss Expert 10/17/2006 02:54PM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1150 PMK140 10/17/2006 03:12PM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1166 Ray C. Davis, Fire Loss Expert 10/17/2006 03:38PM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1249 PMK140 10/17/2006 02:56PM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1144 Ray C. Davis, Fire Loss Expert 10/17/2006 03:42PM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1215 PMK140 10/17/2006 04:24PM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1282 PMK140 10/17/2006 02:48PM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1114 MIJ 10/17/2006 05:25PM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1153 MIJ 10/17/2006 05:39PM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1214 PMK140 10/17/2006 06:03PM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1141 PMK140 10/17/2006 06:07PM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1157 Ray C. Davis, Fire Loss Expert 10/17/2006 06:16PM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1214 PMK140 10/17/2006 06:26PM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1265 Ray C. Davis, Fire Loss Expert 10/17/2006 06:13PM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1103 PMK140 10/17/2006 06:20PM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1258 MIJ 10/17/2006 06:26PM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1314 Ray C. Davis, Fire Loss Expert 10/17/2006 06:50PM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1269 Ray C. Davis, Fire Loss Expert 10/17/2006 06:53PM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1136 PMK140 10/17/2006 07:08PM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1215 MIJ 10/17/2006 07:13PM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1146 ttijerina 10/18/2006 06:02AM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1217 John J. Lentini, CFEI 10/18/2006 08:06AM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1135 firecop5002 10/18/2006 11:00PM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 2095 PMK140 10/19/2006 07:41AM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1173 firecop5002 10/19/2006 10:54AM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1128 PMK140 10/19/2006 11:19AM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1200 John J. Lentini, CFEI 10/19/2006 08:59AM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1144 Jim Mazerat 10/19/2006 10:57AM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1261 ttijerina 10/20/2006 05:20AM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1185 Adam Holloway 10/17/2006 07:05PM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1170 Ray C. Davis, Fire Loss Expert 10/18/2006 08:21AM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1202 Adam Holloway 10/18/2006 08:58AM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1048 Ray C. Davis, Fire Loss Expert 10/18/2006 11:55AM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1218 Adam Holloway 10/18/2006 12:19PM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1226 MIJ 10/18/2006 12:23PM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1159 MIJ 10/18/2006 12:47PM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1034 MIJ 10/18/2006 09:12AM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1178 MIJ 10/18/2006 09:27AM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1173 RCox 10/18/2006 09:51AM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1086 MIJ 10/18/2006 10:11AM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1211 MIJ 10/17/2006 07:06PM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1056 Jim Mazerat 10/18/2006 10:24AM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1069 MIJ 10/18/2006 10:56AM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1250 Jim Mazerat 10/18/2006 11:44AM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1178 MIJ 10/18/2006 12:34PM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1072 MIJ 10/18/2006 01:08PM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1012 Jim Mazerat 10/18/2006 01:40PM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1177 MIJ 10/18/2006 02:17PM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1192 Jim Mazerat 10/18/2006 05:35PM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1049 MIJ 10/18/2006 05:53PM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1052 Jim Mazerat 10/18/2006 08:58PM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1111 MIJ 10/18/2006 11:09PM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1048 Jim Mazerat 10/19/2006 11:27AM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1150 MIJ 10/19/2006 12:23PM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1116 Jim Mazerat 10/19/2006 01:18PM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1105 dahebert 10/19/2006 03:20PM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1088 MIJ 10/18/2006 02:19PM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1130 Jim Mazerat 10/18/2006 01:53PM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1091 ssklar 10/19/2006 03:30PM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1241 ssklar 10/19/2006 03:44PM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1093 MIJ 10/19/2006 11:01PM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1152 Jim Mazerat 10/18/2006 10:43AM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1159 dahebert 10/19/2006 03:22PM
  Re: National Geographic: Forensics under fire 10/12 at 10PM 1100 MIKE 10/19/2006 04:47PM


Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
This forum powered by Phorum.