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Re: Undetermined Accidental?
Posted by: Jim Mazerat (IP Logged)
Date: February 01, 2007 12:41PM

I, as an investigator have no problem in understanding your classification of “Accidental Undetermined”, there may be those that would serve on a jury that would think the two terms do not relate properly to each other and thereby place the person’s testimony into question. My question is this terminology, is our present method of classification outdated to the point it no longer can be made to fit the scenarios we are determining. In the beginning the terms accidental, intentional, natural, or undetermined were being used to classify the reason for ignition taking place. The elements needed to reach a conclusion as to the classification have changed in recent years.

Through the evolution of our profession the term intent was added as an additional factor that the investigator must consider before classifying the incident. At the same time that classificating the reason for the event is different for determining the cause of the fire. This would suggest one should not longer be classifying the cause for ignition but only the reason for the total event. The fire service’s reporting system addressed this problem by changing the classifications being used. The main ones are, Case Status, Availability of Material First Ignited, Suspected Motivation Factors, Apparent Group Involvement, and Incendiary Devices. They call these terms Factors Contributing to Ignition. Under these main topics are sub-topics which better explain specifically what took place.

Has fire investigation, through its use of science, reached a point to where simplicity in classification is not longer adequate? Do we need to do as the fire departments and upgrade our classification system to where it better addresses the information that we are attempting to convey to others?

As you have point out, there are situation where the terminology being used in classifying an event does accurately depict what took place but can be confusing to others. An accurate determination as to the cause of an incident may not fit into a simple one word classification. It is like attempting to put a size 9 foot in a size six shoe. This present classification system, instead of simplifying the explanation of what took place is actually making the explanation more confusing and less understandable. Sometimes the simplest way to explain your thoughts accurately is to say what took place in clear terms. What would be wrong with describing your office scenario saying that the fire originated in this area of the office with these items being possible sources of ignition but due to their damage a precise conclusion could not be reached as to which of these items were the source of heat causing ignition. There is video of the event that shows no one entered the building or office after it was secured. This information is probably in the report, or should be, and any attempt to describe what took place in one word does not work. To me this is one area where KISS means tell what took place and quit trying to do a one size fits all explanation.



Subject Views Written By Posted
  Undetermined Accidental? 2153 dahebert 01/31/2007 11:21AM
  Re: Undetermined Accidental? 1307 Jim Mazerat 01/31/2007 12:35PM
  Re: Undetermined Accidental? 1178 bpeck 02/01/2007 09:23AM
  Re: Undetermined Accidental? 1149 dcarpenter 02/01/2007 10:20AM
  Re: Undetermined Accidental? 1068 MIJ 02/01/2007 10:58AM
  Re: Undetermined Accidental? 1098 Jim Mazerat 02/01/2007 11:46AM
  Re: Undetermined Accidental? 1043 MIJ 02/01/2007 12:18PM
  Re: Undetermined Accidental? 966 Jim Mazerat 02/01/2007 12:46PM
  Re: Undetermined Accidental? 999 MIJ 02/01/2007 02:25PM
  Re: Undetermined Accidental? 1026 Jim Mazerat 02/01/2007 04:16PM
  Re: Undetermined Accidental? 1027 MIJ 02/01/2007 04:56PM
  Re: Undetermined Accidental? 1092 dcarpenter 02/01/2007 12:49PM
  Re: Undetermined Accidental? 1020 Jim Mazerat 02/01/2007 11:26AM
  Re: Undetermined Accidental? 1115 dcarpenter 01/31/2007 01:03PM
  Re: Undetermined Accidental? 1069 MIJ 01/31/2007 01:11PM
  Re: Undetermined Accidental? 1031 dahebert 01/31/2007 03:27PM
  Re: Undetermined Accidental? 1189 Jim Mazerat 01/31/2007 03:23PM
  Re: Undetermined Accidental? 1134 SJAvato 02/01/2007 11:29AM
  Re: Undetermined Accidental? 1018 MIJ 02/01/2007 12:26PM
  Re: Undetermined Accidental? 1034 Jim Mazerat 02/01/2007 12:49PM
  Re: Undetermined Accidental? 1169 SJAvato 02/01/2007 02:08PM
  Re: Undetermined Accidental? 1020 MIJ 02/01/2007 02:30PM
  Re: Undetermined Accidental? 1074 Jim Mazerat 02/01/2007 02:40PM
  Re: Undetermined Accidental? 898 MIJ 02/01/2007 03:17PM
  Re: Undetermined Accidental? 950 Jim Mazerat 02/01/2007 03:38PM
  Re: Undetermined Accidental? 1095 Jim Mazerat 02/01/2007 03:36PM
  Re: Undetermined Accidental? 1048 MIJ 02/01/2007 05:07PM
  Re: Undetermined Accidental? 983 Jim Mazerat 02/01/2007 07:38PM
  Re: Undetermined Accidental? 1032 MIJ 02/02/2007 10:29AM
  Re: Undetermined Accidental? 1069 Gerald Hurst 02/02/2007 11:01AM
  Re: Undetermined Accidental? 995 MIJ 02/02/2007 01:44PM
  Re: Undetermined Accidental? 1070 Jim Mazerat 02/02/2007 11:33AM
  Re: Undetermined Accidental? 992 dcarpenter 02/02/2007 11:49AM
  Re: Undetermined Accidental? 985 Jim Mazerat 02/02/2007 02:41PM
  Re: Undetermined Accidental? 1086 Jim Mazerat 02/01/2007 12:41PM
  Re: Undetermined Accidental? 1035 dcarpenter 02/01/2007 01:07PM
  Re: Undetermined Accidental? 992 Jim Mazerat 02/01/2007 02:10PM
  Re: Undetermined Accidental? 921 MIJ 02/01/2007 03:15PM
  Re: Undetermined Accidental? 1609 dcarpenter 02/01/2007 04:39PM
  Re: Undetermined Accidental? 1020 SJAvato 02/02/2007 09:37AM
  Re: Undetermined Accidental? 1119 k9team 02/02/2007 10:10AM
  Re: Undetermined Accidental? 1001 Jim Mazerat 02/02/2007 10:22AM
  Re: Undetermined Accidental? 997 ForensicEEnMD 02/05/2007 05:00PM
  Re: Undetermined Accidental? 1001 Jim Mazerat 02/05/2007 08:14PM
  Re: Undetermined Accidental? 1125 dahebert 02/06/2007 09:18AM
  Re: Undetermined Accidental? 1073 Jim Mazerat 02/06/2007 09:59AM
  Re: Undetermined Accidental? 1046 dcarpenter 02/06/2007 10:47AM
  Re: Undetermined Accidental? 997 Jim Mazerat 02/06/2007 11:29AM
  Re: Undetermined Accidental? 1071 dahebert 02/07/2007 03:31PM
  Re: Undetermined Accidental? 1023 Jim Mazerat 02/07/2007 03:44PM
  Re: Undetermined Accidental? 1113 dahebert 02/07/2007 04:56PM
  Re: Undetermined Accidental? 1081 Jim Mazerat 02/07/2007 05:50PM
  Re: Undetermined Accidental? 1091 SJAvato 02/07/2007 06:28PM
  Re: Undetermined Accidental? 1088 Jim Mazerat 02/08/2007 11:32AM
  Re: Undetermined Accidental? 1082 jgmcfps 02/08/2007 10:54AM
  Re: Hebert, Spelling and Grammar 1136 PMK140 02/02/2007 03:58PM
  Re: Oh, I forgot to add- 1103 PMK140 02/02/2007 04:00PM
  Re: Oh, I forgot to add- 1120 Jim Mazerat 02/02/2007 04:13PM
  Re: Oh, I forgot to add- 1065 dahebert 02/05/2007 12:29PM


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