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Re: 921 Level of Certainty
Posted by: dcarpenter (IP Logged)
Date: March 18, 2022 10:51AM

"I guess this is a personnel preference as to the use of the word undetermined. I still think the one word can lead to a misunderstanding. I also do not like using in my report negative words. I also do not want to have the perception that my answer is an absolute. The way I describe my finding is to say, “I presently do not have sufficient data to eliminate all potential possibilities as to the cause of this incident.” I will not argue that another person with different qualifications may be able to reach a conclusion."

Sufficient evidence or insufficient data and evidence. Not "insufficient data." You need evidence. Data is a necessary, but insufficient condition to reach a reliable determination using the SM.If the use of this term is contrary to NFPA 921, then one must justify your alternative use of the language.

"I feel undetermined is not sufficient because it does not explain why is undetermined. What were the reasons a conclusion could not be reached? During questioning some say that the reason for the undetermined was due to the fact their client did not want to pay for the work that was needed to reach a conclusion. It had nothing to do with there being insufficient data available to reach a conclusion. Other time the person did not have the knowledge to proceed further. If you just tell me the cause of the fire is undetermined, what are you trying to say. By using that one word there is not enough information for me to reach a conclusion as to the possibility of a conclusion being reached."

Your report should detail your application of the SM to a specific incident with the available data and evidence. The SM and reliable determinations should be reproducible or at the very least, based on differences in education, training, knowledge, and experience, provide an understanding of how the expert applied the SM to the specific incident. The reader can then understand why you arrived at an undetermined fire cause determination.

"The scientific method is reliable to a point. If any conclusion based on the use of the scientific method cannot be considered an absolute, then what is the degree of reliability? Here you are getting into a level of certainty. You state, “Without any evidence that allows one hypothesis to be uniquely consistent with the available evidence, any further determination beyond "undetermined," is subjective and unreliable.” The undetermined is the investigator’s personal opinion only. To say there cannot be a further determination is limited to the person making the statement but does not directly relate to others conducting the investigation."

"More probable than not."

It is the investigators "expert opinion" based on the reliable application of the SM to the available evidence to reach his/her determination.

Personal opinion, not based on the reliable application fo the SM, is both subjective and unreliable.

Douglas J. Carpenter, MScFPE, CFEI, PE, FSFPE
Vice President & Principal Engineer
Combustion Science & Engineering, Inc.
8940 Old Annapolis Road, Suite L
Columbia, MD 21045
(410) 884-3266
(410) 884-3267 (fax)
www.csefire.com



Subject Views Written By Posted
  921 Level of Certainty 558 J L Mazerat 03/01/2022 10:41AM
  Re: 921 Level of Certainty 322 J L Mazerat 03/03/2022 08:27AM
  Re: 921 Level of Certainty 346 dcarpenter 03/03/2022 10:28AM
  Re: 921 Level of Certainty 326 J L Mazerat 03/04/2022 09:52AM
  Re: 921 Level of Certainty 311 dcarpenter 03/10/2022 11:50AM
  Re: 921 Level of Certainty 290 J L Mazerat 03/12/2022 09:10AM
  Re: 921 Level of Certainty 282 dcarpenter 03/14/2022 02:54PM
  Re: 921 Level of Certainty 266 J L Mazerat 03/15/2022 10:06AM
  Re: 921 Level of Certainty 275 dcarpenter 03/15/2022 07:27PM
  Re: 921 Level of Certainty 268 J L Mazerat 03/16/2022 12:58PM
  Re: 921 Level of Certainty 264 dcarpenter 03/17/2022 02:35PM
  Re: 921 Level of Certainty 260 J L Mazerat 03/18/2022 09:07AM
  Re: 921 Level of Certainty 261 dcarpenter 03/18/2022 10:51AM
  Re: 921 Level of Certainty 262 J L Mazerat 03/19/2022 12:06PM
  Re: 921 Level of Certainty 254 dcarpenter 03/21/2022 10:42AM
  Re: 921 Level of Certainty 233 J L Mazerat 03/21/2022 05:09PM
  Re: 921 Level of Certainty 238 dcarpenter 03/22/2022 08:46AM
  Re: 921 Level of Certainty 234 dcarpenter 03/22/2022 09:00AM
  Re: 921 Level of Certainty 231 J L Mazerat 03/22/2022 11:48AM
  Re: 921 Level of Certainty 244 J L Mazerat 03/22/2022 11:41AM
  Re: 921 Level of Certainty 235 dcarpenter 03/22/2022 01:16PM
  Re: 921 Level of Certainty 237 J L Mazerat 03/22/2022 02:32PM
  Re: 921 Level of Certainty 257 J L Mazerat 03/19/2022 09:37AM
  Re: 921 Level of Certainty 292 dcarpenter 03/19/2022 10:04AM
  Re: 921 Level of Certainty 253 J L Mazerat 03/19/2022 08:30PM
  Re: 921 Level of Certainty 255 dcarpenter 03/21/2022 10:47AM
  Re: 921 Level of Certainty 241 J L Mazerat 03/21/2022 05:16PM
  Re: 921 Level of Certainty 249 dcarpenter 03/22/2022 08:56AM
  Re: 921 Level of Certainty 242 J L Mazerat 03/22/2022 11:45AM
  Re: 921 Level of Certainty 260 dcarpenter 03/22/2022 01:21PM
  Re: 921 Level of Certainty 239 J L Mazerat 03/22/2022 02:36PM
  Re: 921 Level of Certainty 243 dcarpenter 03/22/2022 03:18PM
  Re: 921 Level of Certainty 235 J L Mazerat 03/22/2022 05:41PM
  Re: 921 Level of Certainty 243 J L Mazerat 03/22/2022 07:35PM
  Re: 921 Level of Certainty 268 J L Mazerat 03/20/2022 10:40AM
  Re: 921 Level of Certainty 272 cda 03/20/2022 08:27PM
  Re: 921 Level of Certainty 263 J L Mazerat 03/21/2022 08:32PM
  Re: 921 Level of Certainty 251 cda 03/22/2022 09:54AM
  Re: 921 Level of Certainty 251 J L Mazerat 03/23/2022 10:57AM
  Re: 921 Level of Certainty 259 CJN 03/23/2022 08:54PM
  Re: 921 Level of Certainty 257 dcarpenter 03/29/2022 08:26AM
  Re: 921 Level of Certainty 257 dcarpenter 03/29/2022 08:31AM
  Re: 921 Level of Certainty 246 J L Mazerat 03/29/2022 10:55AM
  Re: 921 Level of Certainty 250 J L Mazerat 03/29/2022 10:51AM
  Re: 921 Level of Certainty 264 John Lentini 03/31/2022 03:38PM
  Re: 921 Level of Certainty 268 J L Mazerat 03/31/2022 06:57PM
  Re: 921 Level of Certainty 268 John Lentini 04/01/2022 10:12AM
  Re: 921 Level of Certainty 239 J L Mazerat 04/08/2022 08:37AM
  Re: 921 Level of Certainty 264 J L Mazerat 03/24/2022 02:47PM
  Re: 921 Level of Certainty 258 J L Mazerat 04/07/2022 10:34AM


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